[₮] A gnu coin called Tera (one of the free currency managed by Duniter)

Hi,

  1. The most comprehensive thing for most people about money is ₮ime.
    As far as i understand DU (perhaps i’m wrong ***), is a value given by year,
    so to be more usable for daily usage, i guess it will be a good thing to
    create a money which value will be around: 1₮ = 1hour (of work **).
  2. 24365NbPeople*Time2Live … we are talking in Tera (10^12)
  3. i guess we have only two case when we need money, exchanging things or ₮ime.
  4. Tibet

Well, just an idea, a small begin of draft…
(Any comments are welcome)

This is a also a try to keep this topic about currencies…
(perhaps time to create a dedicated thread for Certifications)

** Note: Type of work: “working the land”
*** Thanks to Galuel, exact value will be:


Last proposals:
Start with 12₮ by day (this value will grow by around 10% by year)
Payouts : Daily
Required certifications to become member : 4 (3 if security rules allow it)
Needed key to init the blockchain : 8 ?
Max certificates deliverables by each member : 40 (seems to be ok on test_net)
Other tunables : ?

I don’t undestand what you mean. Let’s suppose a community of 10 persons, then how do you pretend you create the money, and to who exactly the money is created !?

Well, hard to resume http://trm.creationmonetaire.info/ in few words…
Have a look on “In Time” movie, and imagine a world where anyone
own really his time, let’s say statistically near 80 years. So, you can trade
this ₮ime with others. Like “if you repair my car, i’will help you to install GNU-Linux
on your Laptop”. There is not really money “creation”, just a new way to deal.
Do you see what i mean ?
(again, i’m certainly not the best to explain how it works…)

What do you mean by “own his time” !? Do you mean If I by you your car for 10 years, then you will live until 90 years, and I will live only 70 years ?

This mean that your wallet is automatically credited by elapsed time. As long as you are alive, you get your ₮imes. The frequency could by 24₮ by day or 24*days₮ by month.
The real compute of DU is much more complicated, but i try to keep it simple.

In your example, you have made a deal which sounds like:
"I’m going to work for you during ten years if you give me your car"
To materialize this deal, you send 10yearswork₮ from your account to his account and that’s all, i hope this decision will not have a so bad influence on your life time :smiley:

So there is 10 ₮ sent from one to the other, and this is not life time, but ₮, and so I understand that each individual will have 24 ₮ (hours) x 365 x 80 years = 700 800 ₮ (hours) per individual, per person.

Is that correct ? Each person will have 700 800 ₮ and will be able to transfer it to other person as a money system !? Am I ok, or not ?

In reality, the exact amount also depends on where you live, how long you will live/sleep and how many people are in your ring of trust, because as in the real life, the “value” of a working hour is not the same everywhere… but if we are talking about theoretical value of 1 ₮, yes it’s something like that.

Ok, so it seems unclear but “something like” that. Let’s suppose now it is that exactly, to think about it, because I don’t understand really how it works (you said first it is “life time” and then you are now talking of “working hour value”, but it seems to me theese concept are inconsistant between them, it can be the first, or the second - to define what it is - but not both).

So let’s suppose a community of N = 100 individuals with 80 years of life expectancy (and same “working hour value” to eliminate any inconsistency) with 700 800 ₮ each one, so there will be a monetary mass M(t) = 100 * 700 800 ₮ and then each one own 1% M, or 100% M/N

Now they make exchange, and 40 years later, it happens exactly that 50 died, and they spent all their money before dying (which seems it is a good idea to spend it when you are alive !), so the other 50 ones will have each one an average of 2*700 800 ₮ (some with less, some with more). And the 50 who died made children, also in the community, that replace them, in order to have a new community of 100 individuals at that time.

So each one of the newcomers will have also 700 800 ₮ each one, because it is the rule “yes it’s something like that”.

Then, what is the total amount of money now !? M(t+40) 50 * 2 * 700 800 ₮ + 50 * 700 800 ₮.

So the average amount of money for the 50 old ones, and the 50 newcomers will be :

  • 50 olds ones : 2 * 700 800 ₮ / (50 * 2 * 700 800 ₮ + 50 * 700 800 ₮) = 2/3
  • 50 new ones : 1 * 700 800 ₮ / (50 * 2 * 700 800 ₮ + 50 * 700 800 ₮) = 1/3

And then 40 years later, the old ones spend their money, and die, replaced by new ones once again. So the old ones at t+80 will own an average of 3 * 700 800 ₮ each one, and the newcomers will own 700 800 ₮ each one.

etc.

And then n*40 years later, we will have :

  • 50 olds ones : (n+1) * 700 800 ₮ / (50 * (n+1) * 700 800 ₮ + 50 * 700 800 ₮) = (n+1)/(n+2)
  • 50 new ones : 700 800 ₮ / (50 * (n+1) * 700 800 ₮ + 50 * 700 800 ₮) = 1/(n+2)

So it seems that the % of money own by the newcomers will go towards zero generation after generation, while the average % of money owned by the old ones converge towards 100%…

This is the consequence of such a money system exactly like you described it. It is what the Relative Theory of Money calls : temporal asymmetry.

3 « J'aime »

My definition of 1₮ is “one hour of work” for exchange commodity, because humans already used to deal hours of work.
You ask me about how it works, so i tried to give you a “very simple” way to see what i was meaning, sorry if my example was about life time, but as your first question was very open, i could not imagine that you have in reality sharp questions. So, i’m going to try to explain you this part (₮ value), please, create a new thread for your question about Relative Theory of Money (i dont understand what’s the issue)
Well, a “normal” guy can not work 24h every day because he need to sleep, in the land where he live there are also certainly already some laws about time working. Also, there are some works where you need to be experienced, so the “value” of a ₮ will certainly not have the same value for everybody. Perhaps should i add “one hour of basic work” to the definition… The goal is not to change how people live and work, only the money they use. So, yes, i’m afraid that rich/poor people will still exist. You need also to know that each member start with 0 ₮ and receive his new ₮ each day and as no one is immortal… so for me there is no issue like you seems to be afraid with the total amount of money…

-> I’ve added the type of work in my first post: “working the land”

At the moment you did not give example at all of what you are talking about (I made it for you), and it seems it is not a free money at all, since you define a value “basic work” which deny the principle of relativity of any value, and so on… then your money will not be a free one.

So why posting here since Duniter is about generating a free money ? You should explain your money system on your own site with numerical example for more than 80 years, where new generations will replace old ones, and explain why the young people will be denied their own definition of what is value or not, and where some of them, (or all of them) will have less % of money of what the dead people had during their own life.

When you will have explained and detailed your money system, people then will be able to see it, understand it and will decide : “yes it is a good money system for me and I would like to have such a money”, or “not it is not good for me, and I will deny any participation in that money system”, or another decision.

But here it is not the good place for that.

2 « J'aime »

Ah ok, I thought you was kidding me, but no, it’s a real misunderstanding!

First, if I post this message here, it is because I speak of free currency based on the theory of relative money. In fact, I am following the poll that was conducted on this forum to choose the name of the currency test. It is now “test_net”. After completing these tests, duniter will be able to handle multiple currencies, Terra is just my naming proposal of one of these new currencies.

Second, I wrote “could” be 24T / day, that’s not sure and I did not say it would stay 24 for ever (in fact i don’t know how it will evoluate) … After, I purposely evaded your question about the exact calculation by "some something like that "to see where you wanted to come in, I think I understand now. Besides, if you re-read me, you’ll see that very soon I warned you of my ignorace on the exact calculation of DU proposed by Duniter software. You seem to know and understand the formulas of the theory, it’s not my case, I understand the meaning for the rest I trust the group. Moreover, this idea is based solely on the order of magnitude used to display the amount of each wallet. So if you want me to be specific, I will try to express my idea in your language:
If the software Duniter share on the assumption distribute xDU by year,
then 1T = xDU / 365 / 24
(For me it’s gibberish, but perhaps for you it might be more clear)

Finally, I think your suspicions and your aggression do not serve the cause.

Ok now, I did not understand that before, it was unclear to me.

Then it is not this exactly. 1 DU = c*M/N whith c = 10% / year and then 1 hour will not be 1T = 1 DU / 365 / 24 but :

1T = [(1+c)^(1/365/1/24)-1] * M/N = [(1+c)^(1/365/1/24)-1]/c DU

But because “c” is a little number, the result will be quite the same than 1T = xDU / 365 / 24

Cool! thank you very much for this precision, you’re welcome !

I had this idea to link DU with hour of life on forum.duniter.fr. Take a look at the LibreOffice_Calc sheet copy at the end of the thread :
https://forum.duniter.fr/t/nom-de-monnaie-et-montant-de-du-les-monnaies-life-hours/162

Nice, thanks for this useful link it is very near this project, but i’m really attached to “hour of work” for ethical and practical reasons. First, it will train people to evaluate the value of things by thinking first “how many time it will get me to create by my self this thing”. After that, as a new user, i’m a little bit afraid by the complexity of DU calculation, but an hour of work, i naturally know what it represent. For exemple, i my case I first want to try this money for exchanges of work i use to made with some people when working on webprojects (sysadm/devs/designers…). But it should also work for gardening and babysitting. So yes I persist and I sign. And, to be honest, I do not like the idea of associating a value to the “life time” thus indirectly to life … The work, one is not required, we can live differently.

@modulix, @bou2fil,

Do you understand that, your proposal of time based money creation is not a libre currency as in Relative Theory of Money.
I advice you to read again upper post of Ğaluel and read again RTM.

With your proposal, do you understand that first arrived persons will create more money, relatively to monetary mass, than people joining later the money? Don’t you see that fucking asymmetry? :fuck:


For instance, imagine only three people are on that monetary systems since it’s beginning, let’s say height years.

So, each created 8 × 365 = 2920 ≃ 3000 days of money.
The total, the monetary mass is ~ 9000 and each one have 1/3, right?

Now, a guy wants to join that money system, let’s says, he spent one year on it:

he created 365 days
others have 9 × 365 = 3285 days

Monetary mass = M(9y) = 3 × 3285 + 365 = 10 220 ≃ 10k

three first persons created 3285/10220 = 32% ≃ 1/3 > 25%
the new guys created 365/10200 ≃ 3,5% of money << 25%

Ok, that’s normaly, he only spent one year and others nine.
Now, let’s compare, money created by three first one during their first nine years and nine years of the new guys!

Identities(1, 2 & 3) = I(1-3) = (8 + 9)years × 365 = 6205
I(4)(9y) = 9 × 365 = 3285
M(17y) = 3 × 6205 + 3285 = 21900
I(1-3) = 6205/21900 = 28,3% > 25%
I(4) = 3285/21900 = 15% < 25%

So, every one, during it’s first nine years on that time money, created not same amount of money:
I(1-3)(first 9y) = 9y × 365d / M(9y) = 3285/10220 = 32% >> 25%
I(4)(last 9y) = 9y × 365d /M(17y) = 3285/21900 = 15% << 25%

Even, nine years later, the new guy, won’t create 1/4 of money. I let you compute it to verify. I am tired doing all job for you…Finally, I did it :wink:

Do you know why? because temporal symmetry is not respected.

RTM demonstration brings a solution with universal dividends, which evolved on the time UD(t) ≠ UD(t + 1), which is based on M, calculated every time.
Also, it permit to have same power over money creation.

I let you think and rethink about it, I am sure you can understand.


We are asking you if you really understand RTM and want to create and participate to a libre currency from RTM, because, if it’s not the case, you are not at the good place, and the software project we are working on is only for libre currency and not other solution.

If you want to create a time based money, please don’t do it here, it’s not the good place. I am sure, that if you are very convinced about time based money, you will create a project and a great forum place.

Thanks in advance.

Ouch, again…
Seems that my english is so bad that it doesn’t permit to understand what i’m speaking about. So the subject should be:
"Proposal for the name of one of the free currency managed by Duniter"
Is it more clear ?

1 « J'aime »

You should not be afraid about “DU calculation”, because it is very simple in fact. Just know that a libre money will grow around 10% / year. But this doesn’t mean you need to produce the money yearly, you can produce it at any regular time basis : every second, minute, hour, day, month, year…

Based on c = 10% / year = (1+10%)^(1/365/24)-1 / hour = 0,001088% / hour

So you can then :

  • Produce a libre money hourly with UDh = 0,001088% / hour * M/N and it will be equal 10% / year exactly
  • Produce libre money yearly with UDy = 10% / year M/N and then UDh = 0,001088% / 10% UDy = 0,01088 UDy

So, once you have chosen the technical time basis of production, you can define easily a fixed ratio for UDhour, UDday, UDmonth etc…

Yes it is absolutely correct.

Then because UD = c*M/N you could show also how much UD you will have in your M/N = 1/c UD, for instance with c = 0,024% / day => M/N = 4167 UDday (0,028% will give you 3571 UDday much closer of 365,25 days x 10 years).

And also it could be very interesting to add relative view (in UD) of a growing account to your quantitative view. Add the quantitative UD to the account of 1 person, and then propose to see its evolution in a relative view. You can study this post with a video and a calc file to understand it precisely.

Once again, thank you, we owe you a lot here …
Ok, I understood that a permanent increase was needed to correct the problem of asymmetry, but I really do not understand all the formulas, I’m glad you to confirm.
So as a result I think that the gap between the image conveyed by the name and the amount received per day should stay not too important, so I propose to leave while an initial base 12T / day (not 24) .
So (please correct me if I say something stupid) the first members of that circle would receive 12T per day (just a division of DU calculated by duniter). Over time, this amount of daily T will increase. The magnitude of the increase is near 10% / year. Hey, that sounds good no?