[Certification request] RavanH 8CQxP

Hi all,

I’m Rolf Allard https://twitter.com/RavanH dutchman living in France, participating in a local initiative that is looking into creating a local free currency. Lire plus sur http://transilience.aufildudoux.fr/les-commissions/economie/

I have created two (!) new accounts with the same ID “RavanH” ( see https://github.com/duniter/cesium/issues/50 ) of which one ( pubkey 8CQxP… ) has received one certification by PierreYves a while ago but it has never started taking part in the creation of new DU.

Do I need to do anything further? Or is this because there is actually more needed than one certification or because there are two RavanH accounts? Or something else?

And what would happen if the second account with that same ID, pubkey 8oCSP, would receive certifications? Is there any point in testing this or would that rock the boat too much at this stage?

Cheers :slight_smile:

I cannot certify you because I can’t see you… You probably did not ask to be in. Try “renew membership” or something like that.

I actually see both accounts but I’m refraining from certifying until the devs jump in…

I can see you, you actually made 3 times the same identity:

The problem is: you made this on 9th June, and an identity expires after 1 week if it does not become a member. So these 3 identities are all expired and no more valid.

You have to make a new one!

Ahhh, ok. So it’s the color that show status “expired” ? I have no real indication of that at all in Sakia (which crashes a lot on Ubuntu 64bit by the way) because it has said “Membership: Expired or never published” from the start…

I’ve tried “Envoyer une demande d’adhésion” (Send membership demand) several times over the last weeks but it does not seem to have made any difference. What does that button actually do?

Any reason why these accounts are still visible even if they have expired? Will there be problems if I create a new account with the same ID again or should I use a new ID?

Will there be problems if I create a new account with the same ID again or should I use a new ID?

Update: I just created yet another account RavanH, now with pub:9HRc2… if anyone can certify, we’ll find out if it creates issues :slight_smile:

You now have 2 certifications for identiy with public key 9HRc2.

Because I haven’t developed a cleaning algorithm yet, so the data stays on the nodes. But it will be added to some future version of Duniter, for sure!

There won’t be any problem if you use again the same UID/pubkey: there is a third parameter constituting your identity which is a timestamp, a date in other words. That’s how the protocol knows wether your identity has expired or not.

And of course, you cannot give a date in the future! Otherwise you would have more time to gather the certifications than another user.

Thanks cgeek, I tried creating a new account with the same ID, salt key and password (resulting in the same pubkey) but that did not seem to actually create a new account but instead log me in to the existing expired one… So I tried again with same ID but new salt and that created the account which by now has been certified successfully. Thanks for that :slight_smile:

One remark: this certification/activation of the last account seems to have made the other two expired ones completely disappear (seems reasonable) but… one of these accounts had a small amount on it, left over from some test transactions with PierreYves. The account (I think it must already have been expired at that time) had received some DU successfully and (I suppose, but have not had confirmation from PierreYves) had send some back.

The remaining amount has now vanished into thin air with the disappearing account…

It sounds like this allows the destruction of dividend outside of the normal monetary devaluation. Or am I mistaken? Even though it is unlikely anyone would willingly do this (on a large scale) it may be wise to make it impossible for uncertified / expired accounts to receive any transactions?

Yes your are mistaken, but I admit it is not very clearly explained: the money can still be used, it is linked to the public key to which it was sent. An identity is not a key, but is linked to it.

A key can create any number of identities, make any number of transactions.

So if you are able to log into some client app (Sakia, Cesium) with this public key, you can still spend the money. No problems.

With few investigations, and as anybody can have a full copy of the database, I’ve found that:

  • key 8CQxPY8FDE25v7x4vYf4vU16T5aMnFgsue4aLvbAgGmZ should still have 1 TN left, as it sent 499 TN back to someone who sent 500 TN to this key
  • key 8oCSP has never had any money unit on its account
  • key 9Hrc2f3kEJ4mwBcMJXeTrQtDxHoLFeYCGMnDd3Mwswe9 (your member key) already has 10 UD! So ~2.000.000 TN.

Hope this is more clear now :slight_smile:

Thanks @cgeek I won’t be logging back into pubkey 8CQxPY (deleted the identity from Sakia and don’t have the salt key anymore) but as I understand it, even though the ID is not visible anymore when searching for identities, it could still be used? That’s very interesting…

How can can this be done? From within Sakia or Cesium app? As you mentioned earlier, pubkey 8oCSP had two entries, both with the same ID, at one point… Is this an example of that possibility? And what would be the point of doing such a thing in real life?

Sorry to annoy you with so many questions. I really appreciate al your help :slight_smile:
We can continue in French if that makes it easier :wink:

In Sakia, you can create an UID (identitity) with an already existing pubkey.

Let say you have created “TOTO”, with salt “A” and password “B”.
So TOTO is an indentity linked to the A/B pubkey.

Now you create a new identity “TITI”, with same credentials salt “A” and password “B”.
You have now in the duniter nodes sandbox, a new identity TITI linked to pubkey A/B.

Two identities on the same pubkey.
Eventually, only one will be accepted in the blockchain (i think, not sure, @cgeek should confirm).

Thanks @vit I tried that but when I choose “Register your account”, Sakia responds with “Your pubkey or UID was already found on the network” and when I choose “Connect using your account” it sais “Your pubkey or UID is different on the network.”

On Cesium I tried the same with “New account” but that throws the error “Pubkey already used in the blockchain” and then logs me back into the existing UID.

I suppose this creation of multiple ID’s under one pubkey is only possible as long as none of them have been certified and accepted into the blockchain. Is that a correct assumption?

Yes, only one couple identity/pubkey can be registered in the blockchain.

The confusing part here, and it is a concern for clients software, is that :

  • Many things are possible in the node sandboxes.
  • But when it comes to write in the blockchain, restrictions apply.

This is understandable, because nodes need to gather a lot of information to be able to choose the good ones to write.

But it leads to this :

  • Sometimes confusing informations in clients between sandbox infos and blockchain infos.
  • Frustrating feeling to be able to do many things in the clients that will be rejected/deleted later by the blockchain.

But clients will improve to give you warnings and reliable infos, with your helpful tests.

Yes because, for Cesium/Sakia, saying “New account” implicitely says you want to become a member for this new account, once it is possible. So if your pubkey (salt/password) or your UID is already taken by an existing member, then fore sure this account won’t be a member, ever. That’s why clients prevent you to create this new account.

But, you could also use the “Connect” feature of Cesium to use an existing account, which might or might not be a member account, to connect to it, and eventually use it just for money transfer.

I advice you to have a quick ready at: http://fr.duniter.org/theoretical/#lestransactions

This gives you an information about public keys.