Ğ1 paired on Ethereum, with value and tradeable with Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

R&D
16

Philosopically, thats is precisely what we’re trying to get rid of here! incentives drives inequality.

I understand. But I’m not talking about Duniter itself, but a bridge outside it. So Duniter would have two value markers: on the legacy market (FIAT, Bitcoin) and its own intrinsic value.

I’d say there is at least one more, should you consider the features and tools being developed

What is the other?

What would be the point ?

There is one variable, you didn’t quote, which I seem lack here in your reasoning.
inherently to the Web of Trust mecanism is a limit in the currency’s population size. it isn’t a hard limit and has no determined value, its just very unlikely to grow bigger than a few million… world population is about a thousand time bigger, (probably not for long as we exhaust the planet faster than it regenerates) but anyway, there should be about a thousand libre currencies (to cover world’s population using same wot parameter) which leads to a question: is that really necessary to be able to buy things ANY PLACE ?

You gave an amazing point.
But the Duniter devs states that anyone can use Duniter, which is different from generating money. That is the point of the external exchange.

therefore, exchanging your stock of eth, btc or gold with our stream of money is a strange concept.

Yes, as Duniter having its own way of getting value, is also weird for others.
To making a balance, I think Duniter should have two value markers: its own nature, and from Bitcoin market.

I suggest the same as Jytou did, that is, spawn and develop a libre currency in Brazil and you will naturally see stream exchange appear as goods and services flows between our two communities…

There are other communities outside France? They haves their own WoT certificate?

Do you rather throw seeds in your garden and rest while it grows, or pump oil, have it cross the world, transform it to chemicals and energy. Light up a bulb and have your plant grow twice faster, sell your surplus to cover your costs? Its a dilemma, at some point in history the later was considered more humanist as it employs more people but perhaps this will change… people may simply prefer to reduce intermediates and take care of their own garden

Yes, that is the point of Duniter, but also the democracy of opportunity for others (non-members in WoT) to use it.

1 Like
17

Another important question: if I create ĞBRL, it will be “mineable” through PoW?

18

Assuming you initiate block 0 using the same parameters you’ll need to be >= 5 to start it as you need 5 certificate to be a member. Using Duniter, Im not sure you can forge a block 0 as is, I believe @cgeek used a different tool. but I don’t know, I wasnt there then.

I develop Juniter a java translation of the original Duniter. it has an interface to create block 0 (ugly, untested, unfinished)

If you do, you’d have your own Web of Trust and blockchain would also use a PoW to forge block yes. Note I use forge rather than mine as mining is a misleading concept here, we’re not mining since its not a limited stock of … rock, metal… PoW is too in my opinion but, well, competition is understood as a concept to reach consensus for thousands of years so yes blocks are written by certified member of the community, like for the Olympic games, the fastest win. and that’s how everybody agree.

There are people outside France, yes, but there is only one WoT we know of so far.

you can literally create ğ2, ğbrazil, ǧSamba, or whatever name you want to give it if you convince 4 of your friends to change the world. You have to find people like the very first bitcoin users, those who probably believed it was for fun and they were giving the goods, not selling it. not those who seek the million dollar pizza story. because of everything you can promise users this is the one thing that will never happen. the counter part to stability and neutrality is that the dream isn’t as big and juicy… but it remains a dream nonetheless, at least for 1850 people so far

Yes you can create a wallet account, sell and buy stuff. you wont’ be able to write blocks or receive your dividend.

I see your point with the exchange, it will come eventually, the reason nobody did it yet, is probably philosophical. How did bitcoin grow? because it was trade-able? or because …

iwanttobelieve
iwanttobelieve428×606 40.2 KB

1 Like
19

Well, you simply were out of the conversation (after more than 1 hour seeing that you’re tipping), just repeating what others orders to say.
“4”, “change the world”, “pizza”, “UFO”…
I can’t reply to an talking like that.

20

???

4 + you = 5 = minimum number of members assuming you’re using the same parameters

change the world is exactly related to “I want to believe”, the UFO is not any UFO it’s Mulder and Scully office’s poster in X-files, its a reference. as most Sci-fi to the future and the unknown. its not hasardous

the million dollar pizza is a reference to a known story about bitcoin. my intentions were not to get you lost there. its just my own way of seeing things

21

I need to keep the conversation without manipulations (as the philosophy of Duniter) and civil, and I ask you the same.

Assuming you initiate block 0 using the same parameters you’ll need to be >= 5 to start it as you need 5 certificate to be a member. Using Duniter, Im not sure you can forge a block 0 as is, I believe @cgeekused a different tool. but I don’t know, I wasnt there then.

I would need to fork Duniter to be a member with a own currency for community?

I develop Juniter a java translation of the original Duniter. it has an interface to create block 0 (ugly, untested, unfinished)

Well, there are lots of Java developers around, so they would be better represented by using Juniter.
But I don’t think how it is good. Are you also a JS developer? Eh, other languages are welcome anyway.

If you do, you’d have your own Web of Trust and blockchain would also use a PoW to forge block yes.

So, Duniter is only for Frenches (as the forum is in french), and I would to fork it? I thought it would offer a tool to create own communities/currencies.
Is there a tutorial for that?

Note I use forge rather than mine as mining is a misleading concept here, we’re not mining since its not a limited stock of … rock, metal…

Ah, thanks, mining is really weird to say as it remembers Bitcoin.
So, PoW is used to forge. And I don’t see how Duniter’s PoW compares to Olympic games, so there are more weird things: “game”, “win”, “everybody”, but ok.

There are people outside France, yes, but there is only one WoT we know of so far.

But this WoT is only for France?

ǧSamba

On this epoch, ǧFunk would better represent Brazil.

you can literally create ğ2

I wouldn’t use that kind of nomenclature. Ğ1 means global unity, so it doesn’t represents a crescent number.

or whatever name you want to give it if you convince 4 of your friends to change the world

Creating a community for Duniter is trying to change the world? No, but the own garden, as you previously said.

You have to find people like the very first bitcoin users, those who probably believed it was for fun and they were giving the goods

Yes, it makes sense. And is hard to find people with that vision.

the counter part to stability and neutrality is that the dream isn’t as big and juicy… but it remains a dream nonetheless, at least for 1850 people so far

1850 are the users of Duniter?
With ğchange site (https://www.gchange.fr/) and the many commerce already accepting Duniter, it isn’t a “dream” (another keyword, pointless to be used on that discussion).

I see your point with the exchange, it will come eventually, the reason nobody did it yet, is probably philosophical. How did bitcoin grow? because it was trade-able? or because …

iwanttobelieve.jpg
iwanttobelieve.jpg428×606 40.2 KB

Using UFOs is another pointless keyword to be used, but its not up to me to moderate intentions, offtopics or whatelse. Bitcoin grew because people could initially generate money from their CPU, avoid taxes and international sanctions (Venezuela as example), be own bank and also, as you said, because it is tradeable.

1 Like
22

4 + you = 5 = minimum number of members assuming you’re using the same parameters

Yes, it was a misunderstood from me, sorry.
On Brazil, “4” haves another meaning, but you really are with non-brazillian people.

change the world is exactly related to “I want to believe”, the UFO is not any UFO it’s Mulder and Scully office’s poster in X-files, its a reference. as most Sci-fi to the future and the unknown. its not hasardous

It is a big coincidence, as two days ago I were reading what people thinkgs about the aerodynamics of a disc/saucer, and today had a conversation about the Betz sphere. Anyway, it is offtopic. How UFO is relevant to Duniter?

the million dollar pizza is a reference to a known story about bitcoin. my intentions were not to get you lost there. its just my own way of seeing things

Ok, sorry if I misunderstood something.
About this story (the Pizza Day) is known on cryptocurrencies community, so thanks for mentioning it. This day is ever being reproduced at https://www.gchange.fr/, which gives a understanding of how to value producs/services on Duniter without depending on Bitcoin.

23

ĞBrazil would be another currency. It would indeed have its own UDs, different from the ones from Ğ1.

None is taken. But as we create more and more Ğ1s every day (in fact we create more exponentially) the value of 1 Ğ1 is eventually going to plummet. The more units there is, the less the value of one unit. At least when the population remains constant and many other parameters.

You were saying you wanted to make a website that would ensure the 1:1 rate between UDP and UD. This is what I was talking about. The thing is that you cannot store UDs. You can only store Ğ1s and over time 1 UD represents more and more Ğ1s. So if you offer UDs, you would have to give back more Ğ1s for 1 UD later - which you won’t have in stock.

Just to make sure everything is clear: when you create ĞBrazil, it will have its own independent blockchain, its own monetary tokens, its own WOT and its own life. A brand new currency. Completely out of the French Ğ1 ecosystem. Which doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t be able to exchange, after a while ĞBrazil and Ğ1 would certainly have some kind of rate of exchange.

Duniter is indeed a tool to create as many currencies as needed. But as it is still in its infancy, there is very scarce documentation about how to initiate a new currency - actually I don’t even know if there is one at all. On the other hand, you have to understand that this is totally new software so everything is possible, including major bugs.

The “1” stands for “first” Libre Currency. The Ğ stands for intangible values (that’s a very short explanation - more here http://www.glibre.org/fondement-semantique-de-ḡ/

It is the current number of members. There are more users, although it would be quite hard to determine the exact number.

It was a metaphor to show that Duniter is an UFO in the world of crypto. :wink: At least that’s how I understood it. :slight_smile:

There is a funny anecdote about Pizza Day on this forum: Etrillum restaurant en monnaie libre Ğ1 - #57 by jeanferreira

24

Great, then you may apply that advice to yourself and withdraw the intention you give me by saying …

Not necessarily, you can keep the same software, and start with a different block 0

Well, you know, open source is more of a slow but stable growth. rare are the people asking for it so its smaller priority.

precisely

Olympic games relate to consensus, in antiquity it was a rare place of common laws and peace, nobody would dare to break to cheat the Olympic as they’d risk to put shame on their community and family

So Olympics is a good analogy for the block creationg, many candidate trying, only one winning. Much better than the so called mining of bitcoin used to incentivize other with fairy tale on how they can make their computer create value, they can create money as you properly said, but mining suggest underlying physical value… anyway, Im not picky on the wording, we can use mining !

no but it wont grow more than a few millions and it will be hard for you to integrate people in Brazil as you’ll be more distant (certification wise) to the rest of the group.

I never travelled there sorry if I used a horrible stereotype

there is many stories about the meaning of Ğ1, I cant tell for sure

members of the wot as of today, Duniter is the software, there must be few hundreds

I think that variable evolves over time

regarding the rest about dream, believes and so on, I settle for a deep and absolute disagreement with you.

Imo, nothing drives people more than their dreams, hopes and beliefs. they can fall for fear, greed… but eventually most people want the nice part of life… its an opinion here so Im not speaking in the name of anyone else. I’m an optimist, stupid idealist :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like
25

ĞBrazil would be another currency. It would indeed have its own UDs, different from the ones from Ğ1.

Yes.

None is taken. But as we create more and more Ğ1s every day (in fact we create more exponentially) the value of 1 Ğ1 is eventually going to plummet. The more units there is, the less the value of one unit. At least when the population remains constant and many other parameters.

Then, what is the difference between Ğ1 and DU?
Would we use DU instead of Ğ1 as we care about its value?
it is really confusing.

You were saying you wanted to make a website that would ensure the 1:1 rate between UDP and UD. This is what I was talking about. The thing is that you cannot store UDs. You can only store Ğ1s and over time 1 UD represents more and more Ğ1s. So if you offer UDs, you would have to give back more Ğ1s for 1 UD later - which you won’t have in stock.

Could it be achieved by both G1P and DUP?

Just to make sure everything is clear: when you create ĞBrazil, it will have its own independent blockchain, its own monetary tokens, its own WOT and its own life. A brand new currency. Completely out of the French Ğ1 ecosystem. Which doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t be able to exchange, after a while ĞBrazil and Ğ1 would certainly have some kind of rate of exchange.

Sure, as ğchange is for all Ğ currencies?

Duniter is indeed a tool to create as many currencies as needed. But as it is still in its infancy, there is very scarce documentation about how to initiate a new currency - actually I don’t even know if there is one at all. On the other hand, you have to understand that this is totally new software so everything is possible, including major bugs.

Could you mention its devs for a precise reply?
Good if Duniter gets more working communities.

The “1” stands for “first” Libre Currency. The Ğ stands for intangible values (that’s a very short explanation - more here http://www.glibre.org/fondement-semantique-de-ḡ/

Sorry for my misconception.
Then, a new currency could be called Ğ2.
But I’m unsure it is good, I think it is better to represent a community with semantic. Like ĞBR.

It was a metaphor to show that Duniter is an UFO in the world of crypto. :wink: At least that’s how I understood it. :slight_smile:

Makes sense.
As Bitcoin is a spacial rocket.

There is a funny anecdote about Pizza Day on this forum: Etrillum restaurant en monnaie libre Ğ1

Yes, this is the first post I’ve read here, and where I did my first post (that were moved to a presentation topic).

2 Likes
26

Hi :slight_smile:

A good point to start if you want to learn how " Libre currency " work is by writing your own program / build simulation with :

DU(t+1) = DU(t) + c2 M / N / Reeval

this is the formula to compute and play with variables…used by Duniter for Ğ1

after that ,

the bible is here : https://ed25519.cr.yp.to/

everything in Duniter [ certifications / transactions / etc… ] deal with this signature.

2 Likes
27

Not necessarily, you can keep the same software, and start with a different block 0

Would need to use CLI?

Well, you know, open source is more of a slow but stable growth. rare are the people asking for it so its smaller priority.

But there aren’t only French people interested in Duniter. I’m as brazillian (a very far country from France) is an example.

no but it wont grow more than a few millions and it will be hard for you to integrate people in Brazil as you’ll be more distant (certification wise) to the rest of the group.

This can be changed when creating a community (the properties)?
As some countries doesn’t haves only millions.

I never travelled there sorry if I used a horrible stereotype

Don’t worry, it is fine; Brazil also does stereotypes about other countries.
Like we think Frenches are in calm peace taking a tea looking at cafe’s glass with all ettiquete.

there is many stories about the meaning of Ğ1, I cant tell for sure

I were wrong about “Ğ1 means global unity”, as @jytou said.

1 Like
28

Yes but the counterpart is that the biggest the community the smaller the security.
Simply put, its much simpler to prepare an attack in a larger community.
there is several parameters so try them and weight the arguments. other person (those who decided them) would explain them better than I.

well , its unlikely that ğ1 suffice to cover the french population so we expect more than one currency at the end. it wasnt set based on a target population but rather on a security standpoint. we expect the currency to converge geographically, which may re-localize part of the economy, but it may also be that currencies emerge to be domain specific (food and grocery, book,movies/ hobbies)

Either way the vision that most people have isn’t a “single currency vision” so ultimately exchanges will be a necessity but in order to grow, we try to keep a single on in France.

of course you’re welcome to try the Ğ1, however Brazil is definitely far enough, thats why I suggest you start your own there, it would be better for you to develop and control than depends on our community and for that you’d have to start choosing the parameters / properties of block 0

good luck to you

1 Like
29

Units that are stored are Ğ1. Let that sink in. :slight_smile:

The way you count these Ğ1s is up to you. Let’s say you want to observe prices. You can use one unit of the currency in the country as your base reference. So the prices would be in Real (Brazil’s currency). You would count in “absolute numbers” of Reals.

Now maybe you don’t really want to use that reference to analyse the evolution of prices. Maybe you could analyse prices by comparing it with the minimum wage. Then your new unit would be the minimum wages. In other words, how many minimum wages is a car worth? You would just represent the same thing (it is the same number of units of Reals) in a different scale, but you’re still representing the same price.

The same goes for the UD in regard to Ğ1s. The UD is simply a different scale, but what is stored and exchanged, the “units” are actually Ğ1s. The specificity of Libre Currencies is that at any point in time, the total UDs is a proportion of the money mass distributed equally among a population. So it is a fixed frame of reference as the proportion always stays the same. But again, it is only a different scale representing the same objects: the Ğ1s.

I hope this will help you understand that when storing things, you should always consider the Ğ1s that are stored, and you can either count them in absolute numbers of Ğ1s or in relative numbers of UDs. Over time, 1 UD represents an exponentially growing number of Ğ1s.

The program is, the website gchange.fr is not as it is reserved for exchanging in Ğ1. Truthfully, it should be called g1change.fr :wink:

@cgeek is there any form of documentation on how to create a block 0?

@DaniellMesquita one piece of advice that comes to my mind: if you don’t understand how to create a block 0 from the code, then maybe it is not yet time for you to create ĞBrazil (or maybe you should find a nodejs developer who does understand) because once you create your currency, you will need to maintain it. If there is any critical bug, you can’t rely on the French developers to fix it for you, even if there is a possibility that they will look into it, but they won’t take responsibility for it.

Yes I would certainly love to see more Libre Currencies grow around the world.

If the French team kills Ğ1 for some reason, or feels there is a need for a second currency, then there could be a Ğ2. But if you create a Brazilian currency, I believe it should be called ĞBrazil or something linked with Brazil. Other currencies may come out in other places and will probably take their name from the place/culture/country/language/etc they emerge from. :slight_smile:

When you create your own currency, you are free to choose your own parameters. But choosing the parameters is absolutely not random.

The parameters for the currency (eg the % for the UD) has to be related to the average life expectancy of the people who are going to use that currency, otherwise it is not a Libre Currency.

The parameters for the WOT (number of certifications, various timings, distance to referring members etc.) must be chosen very carefully in order to guarantee some level of security of the WOT. And these are the parameters that mathematically restrict the size of the WOT. As far as a currency is concerned, one million people seems to be a good number: not too low (under that, the economic zone is not varied enough and not large enough to be of significance) and not too large (too large poses problems in terms of security, as @Junidev pointed out, but also in terms of some people being too far from each other to really interact economically).

1 Like
30

Please excuse my interruption, I would suggest @DaniellMesquita to consider reading the relative theory of Money as it exposes the principles of libre currencies, the relation between UD and libre monetary unit, the possible exchange rate between currencies according to their monetary mass and their users number, and so on…

It does not relate to software developpment, however.

I would be very glad to see a brasilian libre currency created !

3 Likes
31

I had the very same idea two months ago and already coded an ERC20 smart contract and a gateway to change Ğ1 in an Ethereum token in order to benefit from the full Ethereum ecosystem (DEcentralized Exchanges (DEX), smart contracts, change with any other token : EUR and USD stablecoins, gold, securities, …). It’s already deployed on the Ethereum testnet but need a bit more tests, mostly because the Duniter network isn’t stable enough for the moment.

Please by patient, I’ll made an announcement in the next few weeks!

Renaud

4 Likes
32

Yes but the counterpart is that the biggest the community the smaller the security.
Simply put, its much simpler to prepare an attack in a larger community.
there is several parameters so try them and weight the arguments. other person (those who decided them) would explain them better than I.

Here is my question about creating a new coin, for a small community, size of a state/province: Une monnaie pour seulement une région d'une province - #3 by DaniellMesquita

but it may also be that currencies emerge to be domain specific (food and grocery, book,movies/ hobbies)

This is interesting. But, coins based on a specific domain aren’t compatible with WoT, as it would require connection based on geography.

33

The same goes for the UD in regard to Ğ1s. The UD is simply a different scale, but what is stored and exchanged, the “units” are actually Ğ1s. The specificity of Libre Currencies is that at any point in time, the total UDs is a proportion of the money mass distributed equally among a population. So it is a fixed frame of reference as the proportion always stays the same. But again, it is only a different scale representing the same objects: the Ğ1s.

I hope this will help you understand that when storing things, you should always consider the Ğ1s that are stored, and you can either count them in absolute numbers of Ğ1s or in relative numbers of UDs. Over time, 1 UD represents an exponentially growing number of Ğ1s.

Could Duniter Desktop calc 1 DU, and know what a good would cost?

The program is, the website gchange.fr is not as it is reserved for exchanging in Ğ1. Truthfully, it should be called g1change.fr :wink:

The desktop gchange and gannounce apps can support any currencies without modification?

@cgeek is there any form of documentation on how to create a block 0?

He didn’t willed to answer.

@DaniellMesquita one piece of advice that comes to my mind: if you don’t understand how to create a block 0 from the code, then maybe it is not yet time for you to create ĞBrazil (or maybe you should find a nodejs developer who does understand)

Not interested to create a coin for a country.
As @Junidev said:

Yes but the counterpart is that the biggest the community the smaller the security.
Simply put, its much simpler to prepare an attack in a larger community.
Also, I don’t use technical and special knowledge when creating a thing.

The parameters for the WOT (number of certifications, various timings, distance to referring members etc.) must be chosen very carefully in order to guarantee some level of security of the WOT

Distance to referring members would be based on state/province’s region size in population.

And these are the parameters that mathematically restrict the size of the WOT

What are the estimated settings for a region with ~3 million habitants?

As far as a currency is concerned, one million people seems to be a good number: not too low (under that, the economic zone is not varied enough and not large enough to be of significance) and not too large (too large poses problems in terms of security, as @Junidev pointed out, but also in terms of some people being too far from each other to really interact economically).

That’s exactly what I’m pointing here: Une monnaie pour seulement une région d'une province - #4 by jytou
So you saying I should create a cryptocurrency for the whole Brazil, doesn’t makes sense.

The question that can be asked is “why be limited to a region”? When the Ğ1 was launched the question was asked to make a single currency or full of small currencies, one by region. One currency per region is to limit its economic impact. And people do not want to waste time with something that has a weak impact. It would seem rather better to make a change for Brazil, so that it shines more.

It seems like a weird change on your mind.

34

How is it?
Also, why you didn’t sent invites for testing?
On which testnet?

35

Cesium already offers to choose your unit : DU or Ğ1.

I think they would require a slight modification in the configuration file, and that’s it!

As I explained in the other thread, it is not a change of mind. It is just a practical and tactical view of a situation. Start a currency that “weights” something in the economy rather than 100 currencies that weight 100 times less individually, thus don’t seem so attractive and useful to the general public. Then when the growth of your currency has become sufficient in a region, launch a local version with the same people that you have in your big WOT. As I pointed out, there are 67 million people in France, yet we did make one currency to start with.

2 Likes