Why Spanish tools are often ignored by French teams?

I wonder why too often Spanish tools are just ignored by French teams. For example, at spanish Gecko links section you can find other wallet, Cesium, but not G1nkgo or telegram Superbot. Or for example you can find Gmarket, but not girala.net. Or for example you can find the French info website, but not the Spaniard (in the Spanish section!!).

I’m not surprised, I’m used to see this pattern since I’ve started the development of girala.net and I know not all French developers have this mood. But it’s sad (and hard to understand).

And not, girala.net is NOT the Spanish Gmarket. It’s just a Gmarket alternative. And for this reason it should likewise be promoted, and all the more so given that it has been translated into French, among many other languages.

Hello

Indeed, this section is not up to date. Since Cesium and Gchange are no longer maintained, please replace them with Ginkgo and Girala, or refer to the appropriate sections for free currency or duniter.

[Fra] Bonjour

En effet cette section n’est pas a jour
Cesium et Gchange n’étant plus maintenu, remplacer par Ginkgo et Girala ou vers les pages adéquates de monnaie libre ou duniter

Here you are the website version screenshot

@arbocenc Because we are all volunteers, have very little spare time, and are not aware of the existence of Spanish tools due to a lack of communication between our communities.

I was not even aware that there was something like a “Gecko links section”. I don’t think it’s up to a wallet to list all other wallets, tools, and websites. In my opinion, a wallet should simply mention the official website, and users can go there to find out what exists.

G1nkgo and the Telegram Superbot are properly mentioned on the official Duniter website: Duniter | Software

Regarding Girala, IIRC, the issue was that we asked for Girala’s source code and never received an answer. The open-source philosophy is at the core of Libre Currency, so the official websites should only mention open-source software with a clear license that is compatible with the open-source philosophy (ideally AGPL, but MIT or Apache2 would also be acceptable).

girala source code is linked at girala.net website :wink:

By the way, girala.net is also not shown here:

and Superbot is not under maintenace, it could be altogether with the other “mature” wallets :wink:

That’s great! I see the license is GPL. In that case, it should indeed be mentioned on the official Duniter website.

I’m not a maintainer of the website, and I’m not even sure who is. I’ve only seen @HugoTrentesaux updating it lately.

If you want to help, you can create an issue or a merge request on the Duniter website repo: https://git.duniter.org/websites/duniter-website-en-v2

Automatic translation:

It is simply incredible that the French community is unaware of a tool like girala.net, which for a long time spread the word about advertisements in Spain and America in a remarkable way. But, in fact, it is not so incredible because precisely those who should have been its main promoters have mostly ignored it. And the same has happened with G1nkgo or Superbot. And as an example, Getcko’s links website, where they give the reference of an alternative wallet to theirs, Cesium (bravo!) ignoring the other two wallets that in terms of functionality and profile are just as interesting as the first (G1nkgo and Superbot). And this issue is something recurrent that Spanish teams observe and comment on frequently.

In the event that the French community is not aware of it, I take advantage of this thread to encourage them to show more sensitivity or, directly, to have a less biased perception of reality with regard to projects that do not originate in the Francophone world :wink: The opposite, from the perception outside the hexagon, is not very understandable :wink:

Original in one of the hexagon’s language:

És simplement increïble que la comunitat francesa desconegui una eina com girala.net, que durant molt de temps va expandir els anuncis a Espanya i Amèrica d’una forma notable. Però, de fet, no és tant increïble perquè justament els que haurien d’haver sigut els seus prescriptors majoritàriament l’han ignorada. I el mateix ha passat amb G1nkgo o Superbot. I per a mostra la web d’enllaços de Getcko, on donen la referència d’un moneder alternatiu al seu, Cesium (bravo!) obviant els altres dos moneders que per funcionalitat i perfil son tant interessants com el primer (G1nkgo i Superbot). I aquest tema és algo recurrent que els equips espanyols observem i comentem amb freqüència. En el supòsit que a la comunitat francesa no li constés, aprofito aquest fil per encoratjar-los a mostrar més sensibilitat o, directament, a tenir una percepció de la realitat menys escorada amb els projectes que no neixen a la francofonia :wink: El contrari, des de la percepció de l’exterior de l’hexàgon, no és gaire comprensible :wink:

Added to my task list :-p

Girala.net is developed with Drupal, a libre software project, as you probably know. The public repo has the code to personalize a Drupal instance in a website with girala.net features.

@arbocenc I think you underestimate how small and divided the French community is. We don’t have enough manpower to keep track of even what happens in the French ecosystem alone, so imagine doing the same for a community with another language, another forum, and very little, sparse communication with us here.

Also, we organise a coordination meeting every month for these kinds of things, where we discuss in English when there are non-French participants. @vjrj has joined a bunch of times, and it has been very helpful.

Complaining about the situation will not magically change it. Instead, I’m trying to be constructive here and suggest things that can help:

It would be very helpful if some people from the Spanish community joined the monthly Dev Talk meeting more often: Development talks

It would also be very helpful if some Spanish contributors helped us keep the official Duniter website up to date.

You’re right, so I just fixed it: Ecosistema Ğ1 - Ğecko
I removed Cesium2 and replaced gchange with jiyujin.

Thanks for the report!

I expected nothing less from you. A response worthy of what I was saying…

We had a discussion with @kimamila at the last Development Talk, and he confirmed that Cesium2 is not dead. He plans to work on it again soon, and we discussed what is needed to allow us to contribute to it. So Cesium2 maintenance will continue one way or another.

Or do you mean that you do not want to mention any other wallet on the Ğecko website? If so, could you at least add a link to the software page on the Duniter website: Duniter | Software ?

So maybe I’ll list Cesium2 again someday when it’s no longer dead.

Sure, no problem with that.
If I believe there are other wallets that meet the standards set by the Ğecko ecosystem, ones that follow security best practices and whose developers are known for contributing to the entire Duniter ecosystem, then I would add them.

It makes no sense to me to list them all and import anything just because it’s compatible with G1 or mentions G1.

On Ğecko, I have certain quality standards that must be met.
Regardless of nationality, suggesting that this is discrimination based on nationality is ridiculous.

I do not agree with such a requirement. Why should a wallet developer have to contribute to the entire Duniter ecosystem in order for their wallet to be listed? What does “the entire ecosystem” even mean? Because, by the literal definition, I can confidently say that nobody meets this criterion, including you.

Requirements that make sense are security best practices, compliance with the Ğ1 Licence, and the list of questions required before certification. In that regard, Ğecko is not fully compliant right now, so I don’t think you are in the best position to judge other wallets.

It reminds me of a discussion we had with @Sarah.Magicienne about creating a council that could define the minimum requirements that all wallets should meet in order to be recommended. For me, such criteria should include things like security, compliance with the Licence and certification questions, accessibility, open-source software and licensing, internationalisation, and that’s it.

Aha no this is bullshit and everybody knows that except for a few people in the tech industry, apparently. That’s exactly why I made it optional in the Cesium2 settings, based on general feedback.

Then please open issues, the open issues are already known and will be addressed in the next release.

Okay, so let me be more specific about this:

Gecko was created following the technical abandonment of the main G1 wallet, which was detrimental to the entire ecosystem.
It was therefore agreed that we would learn from past mistakes and avoid repeating the same patterns.
One of these, in particular, is to avoid building a monolith where the core functionality related to Duniter isn’t shared with the rest of the ecosystem.

That is why I took the time to build the durt2 library, which integrates 100% of the business logic related to the Duniter ecosystem and is completely agnostic to the state manager, so that any Flutter tool can use it and, most importantly, contribute to the library for its own needs, thereby helping everyone grow.

So “contributing to the rest of the ecosystem” refers to this mindset.

On the other hand, I’m starting to get really sick of repeating myself over and over again on this topic. It seems completely out of touch to me, as if you’d just landed from who knows where. Focus on your own topics, and allow yourself to shed light on issues that have been open for years and have been debated at length, it’s starting to get tiresome.
The issue is still on the table; nothing has changed since then, so I don’t understand why I’d be asked to change anything.

Yes, of course, and Ginkgo doesn’t address this at all, and I’m puzzled by the fact that no one is pointing out anymore that this app allows users to create members accounts without even making sure they’ve written down their recovery phrase.
To me, this is obviously the most critical security issue, we’ve been talking about it on this forum for literally 10 years, and you keep saying that everything is fine with this app? But what exactly is your problem? Did you even test this app just once before passing judgment?

However, it’s not for lack of having:

  • Contributed to G1nkgo in its early days to open a dialogue and show my willingness to work as part of a team.
  • Contacted the app’s developer to explain the security risk of having member accounts without ensuring that users have written down their recovery phrases
  • Sent a private message to the app’s developer as soon as development on durt2 began, asking for their requirements so they could integrate it into g1kngo and contribute to it
  • Created a durt library when I decided to transition Gecko to the v2 migration in order to support the development of that migration, rather than rushing out an app without investing in the future. This is precisely what g1nkgo did by using durt1 directly and only taking an interest in v2 a few months before the migration.

So now, once and for all, no, g1kngo does not meet the security standards we collectively set for ourselves many years ago, and I am stunned to see that you are acting as if nothing has happened.


Finally, I’d like to clarify this:
The Gecko website and its communications follow their own editorial line. That’s precisely why it isn’t hosted on the duniter.org domain, which was managed collectively.
I therefore reserve the right to post whatever I see fit there, without being pressured by anyone if I feel certain things are counterproductive.

Please keep this in mind going forward.

I never said that Ginkgo meets all the requirements. In my opinion, there is currently no wallet that meets all the requirements. Some others and I think that, to solve the situation, we first need to specify precisely what these requirements are. (I’ll probably create a dedicated topic for that if nobody does it before me.)

I think it’s fine to allow users to create accounts without forcing them to write down their recovery phrase, as long as these “insecure accounts” are limited by some boundaries. A good trade-off might be to prevent these accounts from becoming members of the WoT and to require users to write down their recovery phrase if they want to become a member of the WoT or if the balance of their account exceeds a certain threshold.

This way, it would still be easy to create small accounts and worry about the recovery phrase later, only when it actually matters (when the user wants to become a member of the WoT or when they start to have a significant amount of funds).

@vjrj what are your thoughts about this? Do you think it’s reasonable?

No, no, you didn’t understand me. I’m speaking about MEMBERS account, member, not an account with 10 g1 to buy your monthly herbal tea.

I’ve written a little post in the girala.net blog about this topic:

I want to bold this:

En Espagne, d’autre part, les deux portefeuilles créés là-bas, Telegram Superbot et G1nkgo, ont toujours eu une relation de respect et de collaboration (entre leurs développeurs, Kapis et Vicente). Et j’ose dire que Vicente a aussi collaboré de bonne foi avec le développeur de Cesium. Chaque projet a une approche, avec ses points forts et ses points faibles (girala.net et Gchange ont aussi des points forts et des points faibles l’un par rapport à l’autre) et l’approche que nous avons comprise comme raisonnable dans la communauté espagnole a été, heureusement, celle de faire partie d’une même illusion.

You know, I could tell you exactly the same story in France, among developers who collaborate with one another.
Here, you’re the one pitting the communities against each other, take a good look at what you’re doing. No one here has pitted the communities against each other. Except you.

We’re simply explaining the different approaches in a pragmatic way, what we might criticize about a tool, regardless of who made it. We’re talking about tech here, collaborative, yes, but that doesn’t mean we accept just anything and everything.

Why assume that if we highlight a particular tool, it’s for racial, ethnic, or national reasons? That’s ridiculous, don’t you think?

I don’t like the tech behind Girala; Drupal isn’t my thing, just so you know. And that’s my right. I don’t see why I should force myself to promote it if I don’t like the tool.
Out of superficial kindness? Let’s be serious for two minutes.

The Duniter and Migration v2 resources have listed every single tool, without exception. If some aren’t highlighted as much as others, it’s for every reason except nationalism. That’s frankly ridiculous.

You draw a distinction between tools created by developers from one country or another, whereas we don’t. That’s where the difference lies.

Do you really want me to list everything I dislike about Girala, right here and now? Is that really what’s driving you?

So where is Gecko here? Can you tell me ? Am I complain about this miss?

First of all, regarding whether Cesium2 is dead or not: I fully understand @kimamilla’s current life and family situation. I well remember having to step away from project collaborations for a time when my own children were born. You only really understand it when it happens to you; you put life itself at the center, and everything else has to wait. So, I have nothing but respect for @kimamilla, and whenever he is able and willing to contribute to Duniter again, it will be a pleasure to cross paths once more. He is missed. For me, it is crucial that Cesium keeps working. For instance, many people in my circle, even friends, rely on it; it’s the tool they know how to use. Recently, people in my region were trying to install and test versions of Cesium1 that had worked for them in the past. That shows just how deeply rooted Cesium is for people. To them, yogurt means Danone, and nothing else exists :slight_smile: So let us respect the pace of each project with patience, and without burying anyone alive.

Regarding G1nkgo’s security: Well, to follow that train of thought, if there is a security issue, it would be good to report it to the various libraries G1nkgo uses (polkadart, pointycastle, long etc.). If by “security” we mean that the web version of G1nkgo is less secure because it runs in a browser, well, I honestly don’t think that’s what this thread is about, so I’ll leave it at that. (Oh, and @elois: an account without a password cannot become a member in G1nkgo; thanks for your comments anyway, I’ll read them again later)

For me it’s sad that Girala isn’t mentioned when someone proposes building a marketplace tool from scratch. Is Girala left off the list because of some unknown security issue? The same goes for Superbot. To me, these are tools widely used in our circles that represent years of work and maintenance, and they deserve respect and thanks.

To finish: for those who contribute, think, design, mediate, etc., (or did it the past) in a healthy and excellent manner…(@elois, @hugo, @cgeek, @kimamilla, @moul, etc., etc., etc.), I offer my full respect and gratitude.